Grenade Launcher, part 3 - Another idea

I had asked a bunch of questions about the Grenade Launcher here and the answers are here. The impetus for my questions is a combination of: (1) not understanding the grenade scatter rules and (2) wondering why the grenade launcher in car wars is so wimpy compared to the real-world munition of Rocket Propelled Grenades (RPGs).

Car Wars has impact-fuses for the GL and I thought that would make the weapon like the impact-happy RPG. RPGs are a major, hand-held, tank-killer. They were used to devestating effect in the fiasco we know as "Black Hawk Down."

What I've come to accept - to the point where I'd establish that this should be an official "game fact" - is that the real-world RPG is not the Car Wars GL but the Car Wars Rocket Launcher. This makes sense - a 'medium rocket' is 1 space, 1 shot, 50 lb, 2 die damage weapon while a 'rocket launcher' is a 2 die damage but 10 shots in 2 spaces. The unguided nature of the single shot rockets means they're large and cheap (it's just a rocket engine plus a bunch of explosives). The Rocket launcher is a smaller explosive but the aiming mechanism, plus the fuel of the launcher, makes up the full 2 spaces.

Grenade Launcher, Part 2 (Followup)

This is part 2 of the Grenade Launcher discussion, with the answers provided by the jolly-good-dudes from the Steve Jackson Games forum.

Here are the questions in bold with the answers (provided by SJGames member "Norcross"). Note, I realized after I asked the questions, that I didn't fully understand the Grenade Scatter Rules. Woops.

1. What is the range of a hand-held GL? Is it 5"? (which I've been told is the range of a hand-thrown grenade)

A hand-thrown grenade has a range of 5". Any other hand-held projectile weapon (including a grenade launcher) has a range of 20" unless otherwise specified.

2. If a (car) GL has impact-fused ammo, then does the fuse go off when the shot hits the designated target or do the grenade scatter rules apply first?

Both :-) The grenade doesn't hit until after you roll for scatter (to find out where it will hit).

3. If there are scatter rules, then what happens if the 'to hit' roll is under 7 - does that mean the shot went off into the stratosphere? And if so, this suggests firing the GL engenders two risks - whether you hit on the 7 and even then, you don't really 'hit' (Ed. this is where my ignorance shows)

That's what the scatter rules cover. The distance it scatters depends on how badly you miss your to-hit roll.

4. Does the 'to hit' of the GL, especially with impact fuses, allow using the GL like an Oil Gun? That is, by using the +4 to hit a patch of ground, the impact grenade with a Flaming Oil load is a smaller Oilgun and with a smoke-grenade load it's a 'smoke gun' (for point-shot smoke screens).

I hadn't thought of that before, but I guess you could. It wouldn't be as good as an Oil Gun, but it would be smaller. Also, the +4 only applies at point-blank range - if your target is even 1" away, you don't get the bonus.

(From Josephey) As far as the +4 for aiming at the ground, I'm not sure if it would apply with the GL because you have to pick a specific point on the ground to target (and to base scatter from). A specific point isn't as big as 'the ground,' and in my opinion wouldn't warrant a +4. Also, if you're trying to put a grenade on the ground in front of a moving vehicle you'll have to add speed mods.

5. According to this AADA News (Pyramid #30) article, NOVA has banned impact fuses because they can be used as a tire-eater. Is that a house-rule specific for NOVA or is that part of the AADA banned list?

It's a house rule. From reading the article, it sounds like they over-reacted to a unique circumstance. If the cars had been moving at real duel speeds, or had the kind of tire protection duellists normally use, the effect would have been greatly reduced.

Rant: Grenade Launchers

The GL is a tough fit in Car Wars. Grenades existed from the very beginning as a pedestrian equalizer - they did full, 1d6, damage to vehicles. They also defined pedestrians (your driver had skills as a driver and gunner and was equal to 6 grenades).

It seemed natural to include the Grenade Launcher as both a weapon for pedestrians and for Vehicles as well.

In a recent (May 2007) discussion at the SJGames Car Wars forum, there was a discussion about what is the worst weapon/accessory in the game. Grenade Launchers were mentioned, and I can see why. They seem oversized and underpowered - and overshadowed by the handheld version which seems to do the same thing!

Yet this rule-warp is on purpose. See how this major (anonymous) question was fobbed off by SJ Dude Charles A. Oines in ADQ-Q&A 6/1:

Q: 2. Why is it that the hand-held grenade launcher can only hold five grenades, but the vehicular model can only hold ten, and takes up 2 spaces? If the vehicular model was one space and held 15 grenades things would compare a little better.

A: 2. Compare in what way? Personally, I'm happy with the numbers as they are.

Great answer, Oines.

I will restate the ADQ Question: a 5 shot pedestrian weapon (worth 2 GE in the hand) has the same to hit & same damage as a vehicular version - which is 10 shots and 2 spaces. No other pedestrian weapon is equally matched (which is why I always arm my drivers with Grenade Launchers when money is available).

One difference could be range. I don't know if pedestrian weaponry is limited, but that could be a factor. [Update, pedestrians can throw 5", but does that hold for the handheld GL?]

The reason for the rule warp could be the God of Game Balance. If so, it'd be the first time.

I asked the SJGames thread a set of questions about the grenades, as follows, let's see what they can come up with:

A few questions about a much maligned weapon, the Grenade Launcher.

1. What is the range of a hand-held GL? Is it 5"? (which I've been told is the range of a hand-thrown grenade)

2. If a (car) GL has impact-fused ammo, then does the fuse go off when the shot hits the designated target or do the grenade scatter rules apply first?

3. If there are scatter rules, then what happens if the 'to hit' roll is under 7 - does that mean the shot went off into the stratosphere? And if so, this suggests firing the GL engenders two risks - whether you hit on the 7 and even then, you don't really 'hit'

4. Does the 'to hit' of the GL, especially with impact fuses, allow using the GL like an Oil Gun? That is, by using the +4 to hit a patch of ground, the impact grenade with a Flaming Oil load is a smaller Oilgun and with a smoke-grenade load it's a 'smoke gun' (for point-shot smoke screens).

5. According to this AADA News (Pyramid #30) article, NOVA has banned impact fuses because they can be used as a tire-eater. Is that a house-rule specific for NOVA or is that part of the AADA banned list?

Ironically, the ADQ (9/1) introduced the military weapon, an "Auto Grenade Launcher" which has these stats:

Auto-GL – To hit 7, damage by grenade type, 3 DP, $5,000. 250 Ibs., 2 spaces, holds 20 grenades (cost by grenade type +$20, 5 Ibs. each); loaded weight 350 1bs. ; loaded magazine costs $50 plus the cost of grenades and weighs 105 1bs. Different grenade types may be mixed in the magazine and fired in any order desired; rotary magazine effects are included in the price. The auto-GL can fire one, two or three grenades in one firing action. All grenades must be fired at the same target, and all grenades in a salvo use the same to-hit roll to determine the amount of scatter, but each grenade scatters separately. For instance, if a three-shot salvo misses its to-hit roll by 3, then each grenade scatters 2d-2 squares in a random direction.

These seem like perfectly reasonable stats for a standard Grenade Launcher - yet the same logic that downgraded the standard version (play-balance? spite?) is the same logic that bans the AGL.